A Foreign Government Meddling in the U.S. Election Process??? Shocking!!!
Like most people, I don't like the fact that Trump got elected with the help of Vladimir Putin. But the people who are screaming the loudest about this are pretty much the same ones who think it's AOK for the United States to be hand-picking the leaders (and eliminating the ones who don't cooperate) of other countries. We've been doing this since at least the early 1950s (e.g. Guatemala, Iran), if not before.
Or as this columnist puts it:
“Now that the election is over, America is getting a little taste of the paranoia other nations know. And it isn't pleasant...And the suspicion that a foreign power was rooting for and acting on behalf of the candidate you opposed strikes not just at your sense of the election's fairness and integrity, but encourages you to indulge in the fantasy that Trump's supporters are formally cooperating in something wicked and seditious.”
More recent examples of American meddling include:
“The American government supported information campaigns as part of the color revolutions in Georgia and Ukraine. Iraqis were probably surprised when U.S. media outlets informed them that figures like Ahmed Chalabi represented their national hopes during the Iraq War.”
Now that the shoe is on the other foot, will American politicians start having second thoughts about our own practice of choosing other countries' leaders? [just a rhetorical question]
posted by Tom Harper @ 11:41 AM
17 Comments:
Probably not.
And Americans can't understand why Iran (other countries) don't like us. Iran had a democratically elected leader, but the United States installed the Shaw and he tortured the people and became just a tyrant. Since Castro just died that reminds me of Batista.
Imagine how the ranters at Capitol Hill would shriek if a foreign government armed and funded militants operating inside the US who had the stated goal of "regime change"?!
One: I doubt it too.
Luke: I worked in Iran for about a year, during the mid '70s when the Shah was still in power. Iran was as much of a police state as any country I've been to -- and I've traveled all over Asia, Eastern and Western Europe -- but it was OK because the Shah was an American ally. Iran was part of the "Free World."
Anonymous: But that's different. You know, American Exceptionalism, the Beacon of Freedom, etc. When the U.S. seeks regime change in other countries, it's in the name of God and Freedom.
I did a paper for a class:
Talks about how the US started the Mexican War with Mexico to get the Southwest and Pacific Coast and even then had eyes on Hawaii. Invading Mexico without permission to get Pancho Villa, Getting Mad at Mexico for receiving the Zimmerman letter. How they signed the treaty with the Spanish in Cuba (another one they started) to end that war...problem is, they never invited the Cubans for their own country. How for the last 125 years they would invade every Country in the Caribbean, Central, and South America that wasn't British or French owned (and even then), if they didn't like the Government. Using the Monroe Doctrine, which basically says (cutting through the crap) that the US owns both Americas, without asking the individual sovereign countries.
As SI Hawakawa used to say about the Panama Canal: "we should keep it, as we stole it fair and square!"
Trump keeps asking why are we in these countries that don't pay for it. That Question makes a lot of sense. Now how see how many Billionaires he pisses off trying to pull out!
Erik
Tom, I lived in Iran just after the Shah was installed. For a number of years. Spoke Farci, and the whole bit.
Like you, I traveled to and lived in countries throughout Eastern and Western Europe, and Africa. Many of them shortly after the last Big War.
The hypocrisy of American policy and actions, and the loss of it's credibility is obvious to those who travel and live outside of the propaganda machine.
"Like most people, I don't like the fact that Trump got elected with the help of Vladimir Putin."
We have no facts, yet, to say that. If just releasing her emails made her look bad, that's on her and the content of those emails. If Snowden, or another source had released those emails would we be blaming him, or the content of her emails?
Now the liberals are calling Trump the anti-Christ, not just Hitler. If the liberals put as much effort into defeating Republican policy and Trump legislation as they do crying about the election, we should have good results.
The Democrats allowed miners to lose their health care in favor of not shutting down the government. They caved already. The Republicans had no problem shutting down the government over their issue. It's called hardball and Democrats better get use to that stance, or Trump and the Republicans will just roll over them and get whatever they want. Seems the only leader voice against some of Trump's ideas is Mitch McConnell.
Erik: Good points. Since the late 1800s, the U.S. has pretty much treated the Caribbean and Latin America as our own fiefdom; our own chess board. I almost forgot about Sleeping Sam Hawakawa.
I think a lot of Trump's ideas -- if he even intends to carry them out -- will be opposed by people richer and more powerful than him. Should be interesting.
Anonymous: As Mark Twain said, travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow mindedness. I liked Iran the least of any country I went to -- and I was there longer than anywhere else -- but I'm still glad to have seen it first hand. My impressions of Iran are my own, not based on the how Iranians are caricatured in the media.
Luke: From my understanding, the CIA is certain that Russian hackers sabotaged the election specifically to help Trump. But either way, I'm not interesting in rehashing the election results, having vote recounts, trying to get the Electoral College to reject Trump, etc. The only thing to do now is make sure enough voters are mobilized to counter the GOP's most extreme goals: eliminating Social Security, Medicare, Obamacare; selling public lands to drilling and mining interests; wiping out the Endangered Species Act, etc.
"From my understanding, the CIA is certain that Russian hackers sabotaged the election specifically to help Trump."
First, why would any thoughtful person take the CIA at it's word? Even if it was citing purported facts and proof, there is just so much evidence that the US has a hard on for Russia, and has for a long time, that it makes believing anything the US or CIA or it's allies have to say, questionable.
Second, what "Russian hackers"? A bunch of skin head nerds in Russia? Organized crime group? Industry operatives? Even if internet traffic were traced to Russia, does that mean it was a government sponsored program?
What we buy into is this (US generated) idea that the whole world revolves around the US, and what it thinks, does and anything that happens here. Russia, China, India, Africa and South America are happily doing trade deals, and engaging in commerce, planning and activities that have nothing to do with the US.
Sure, others are interested in what is happening here. You know. Like that train wreck you just can't turn away from.
Anonymous: I was referring to this article I saw yesterday. The author's main point was that Trump is pissing off the highest ranking Intelligence Community mucky mucks by publicly dissing their findings, publicly saying he's not interested in listening to their boring daily briefings, etc.
I also saw a BBC interview with Gorbachev where he's saying Putin is devious, power-crazed and determined to get even with the U.S. for our economic sanctions against Russia, and our trying to get as many ex-Soviet satellite countries as possible to join NATO. Gorbachev was partly blaming the U.S. for walking all over the collapsed Soviet Union 25 years ago instead of helping them and forging a new era of cooperation between the two Powers.
I agree that most of the world is concerned with their own trade deals, commerce, etc. and is more and more unconnected to the U.S. And Americans' paranoia is mostly just self-absorption, a longing for the good old days when the rest of the world was America's colony.
"I was referring to this article I saw yesterday. The author's main point was that Trump is pissing off the highest ranking Intelligence Community mucky mucks by publicly dissing their findings, publicly saying he's not interested in listening to their boring daily briefings, etc." Well, that is a different topic than ".. the CIA is certain that Russian hackers sabotaged the election specifically to help Trump."
How a leader of a country that has military bases in countries all over the world, that is engaged in proxy wars all over the world, that is actively engaged in destabilizing countries around the world can say he isn't interested in briefings, is just insane. A bit like hiring on as a brain surgeon, with no prior experience, and with no interest in learning what's involved.
Gorbachev? Reagan's buddy? Really?
And the BBC? NATO mouthpiece?
Anon,
Hackers are a legitimate part of every major countries intelligence. They might wear uniforms with patches and draw Officer's Salary.
In the US they're known to be in the NSA, DoD, and CIA. The US doesn't admit to it as Hacking is considered to be unethical and everybody knows the West don't play dirty.
Supposedly US Government Hackers broke into the Iranian Nuclear Power plant and got it to crash. The Iranians retaliated by Hacking a drone and causing it to crash.
Erik
Putin did what he did because of his hate for Hillary, not any love for Trump. Yes, the intelligence community will have to prove to me Trump was somehow involved, or in cahoots with Putin. Trump asking the Russians to expose Hillary's emails (publicly) is something Trump already knew was being done, from his earlier intelligent briefings. Trump thinks he can deal with Putin, which only shows what we already know about Trump, he is an idiot. Russians continue to support Putin and Americans just elected Trump president. When do we start blaming the people? I don't believe Trump is Hitler, or the now new accusation that he is the anti-Christ. That does not mean his stupidity might not create the same results. Would American intelligence, or military follow an illegal ordwer from our president? They have before, many times.
"Putin did what he did because of his hate for Hillary" And you know this, exactly, how?
Listen, I have no love of any world leaders, US, Russian, or South African. Politicians are politicians. What bothers me is the seemingly lack of discernment displayed by those who form their beliefs on a clearly biased source that clearly is engaged in a propaganda campaign, as has been for a long time.
The media, for example, loves to cast Russia's involvement in Syria as somehow inappropriate. Most recently was some comment from the US State Department about the "hypocrisy of Russian policy as it causes violence in Syria, while saying it is trying to help..".
Russia has had a long "friendship" with Syria, going back many decades. Prior to Putin or Assad. Russia has come to the aid of a long time ally, fighting foreign funded and armed "rebels" who are blowing up towns, and facilities.
There was no significant refugee/immigrant problem until the US and it's NATO allies decided to arm and fund the "rebels". Now, having contributed to the destruction of their country, the US and it's allies question their responsibilities for the refugees they've created?
What would the reaction be, if North Korea openly armed and funded "rebels" in Canada that ran around blowing up facilities, towns, etc? You think the US would sit by, and say "Good luck with that!"?
The acceptance in conversations of these absurd pronouncements and manipulations by the US and it's allies, by supposedly thinking people, is stunning.
Buy into "It's the Russians fault.." distractions, rather than face the reality that the working world is working for dollars a day, that America cannot compete with those wages AND maintain it's current standard of living, AND, that a "balancing" of these economic realities is coming down the line.
My bet is that workers in India, China, Bangladesh etc will NOT be getting paid $15 an hour in our lifetimes. Can you pay your mortgage on $3 a day wages?
Hey Tom, Luke and others. You could look at how Trump and the elections were/are discussed and depicted by the Russians, as broadcast right here BY Russian TV, in America!
Look at what was actually said, for yourself:
https://www.youtube.com/user/redactedtonight
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheBigPictureRT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZL2F6jw508&list=PLagVUKF7CUTRiG64CklL1AN0mbmNaETfp
See how much of what was broadcast, you disagree with!
Anonymous: Right you are. Excellent discussions at all 3 videos. I have RT linked at my blog, as of a few weeks ago. I keep meaning to go over there more often.
Gee, Putin and his government funds RT.
The interviews, discussions, documentaries and such that I see there are by FAR and away more progressive and informative than ANYTHING put out by the MSM.
Hmm. Who ya gunna believe? Your own eyes and ears, or those "unnamed sources" of the US government, and their media parrots?
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